D-series oliepomp info

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D-series oliepomp info

Berichtdoor HondaNickx » za 27 maart 2010, 13:52

Wederom zeer goeie info over de d-series olie pompen en het grote verschil tussen de 'slechte' y8 pomp en Z6 pomp .Research en info komt van "Rushi"...

Rushi schreef:I wanted to make another info thread about different D-series oilpumps, since I've many different ones and most ppl claim Y8 pump is inferior to older ones. I wanted to find out why it's so, and for one very important reason I'm using Y8 pump in my D15 build.

The pumps covered here in my post are PM3 (pretty much all '88-'95 engines), P7A ('96-'00 OBD2) and PLC ('01-> D16/D17). The reason I bought brand new OEM oilpumps, first PLC one and now P7A, is the all-important precise crank trigger setup. OEM solution is very neat and I wanted to get rid of my dirty Hall-effect sensor setup from pulley that makes using harmonic balancer impossible.

I first got the PLC pump because I saw some '03- or so engines at work and found those have OEM cranktrigger.. But when I got the pump, I quickly discovered its perfect fit for older blocks, but doesn't fit to older cranks. Then I saw some Y7/8 build pics online and found that those engines also have cranktrigger and pump fits older cranks.

OK lets take some looks at these pumps. I don't have a "face" pic of PM3 pump from D15B2/D16Z6. Nothing special here, though.

This is P7A D16Y8 pump. It has nice even 12-tooth trigger setup, than can be used to DIRECTLY replace the 24-tooth trigger in OBD1 dizzies.

Afbeelding

Then comes PLC '01-> pump. Very similar to P7A, but trigger setup is different . It has 12+1 tooth trigger, same as F20C (and I suppose K20 too). Sensor is also slightly different, but location is identical to P7A.

Afbeelding

Next picture compares all three from inside with rotors in place. Counting from left to right, PM3, P7A, PLC;

Afbeelding

Differencies are starting to appear. Some very sharp-eyed viewers might get them already, but next picture and measurements will reveal something, same order as before;

Afbeelding

Y8 rotors are significantly smaller in diameter than PM3 and PLC, but it also has tooth count of 10/11 as opposed to PM3's 9/10. But Y8 rotors are also way thicker then PM3, actually thickest of all them:

Afbeelding

Comparing P7A inner rotor to PM3, P7A on top.

Afbeelding

Lets then compare the pump housings with rotors removed. PM3 D15B2 pump is slightly ported but do not let bother you, nothing drastic here. Same order, PM3, P7A, PLC;

Afbeelding
Afbeelding
Afbeelding

Here you can see some development progress that IMO can't be bad thing. PM3 has very abrupt inner shapes. P7A has small taper in transition from intake side, and PLC has IMO the best very shallow and generous tapers on both sides. Also notice that Y8 P7A has way biggest internal volume.

Lets then compare the outlets. P7A and PLC are identical in this point so only P7A compared to PM3. The outlet passage on both pumps is roughly 12mm ID. PM3 is very close to 12mm, P7A has something around 11.5mm or so. You may notice that in those pictures the P7A passage looks bigger. Well the reason for that is it really is bigger, I drilled it with 13mm drill and its close to 13.5mm now.

Afbeelding
Afbeelding
Afbeelding

Plugs are also way different in size. PM3 has way smaller plug and its threads are tapped directly to same bore size as outlet passage, so I think its some kind of M14 thread. P7A/PLC has way bigger plug and thread, didn't measure it but I suppose it might be some NPT thread. That makes it very easy to route oil externally with big hose and eliminate few sharp 90-degree turns and use very big remove oil filter etc interesting.

Lets then compare the actual outlets of pumps where it mates to engine block. Its not quite fair because PM3 is ported, but you can get the main difference. Sorry 'bout blurry pic here;

Afbeelding
Afbeelding
Afbeelding

Main point here is that PM3 outlet is way smoother even in non-ported form, and outlet size is pretty much the same as passage and it lacks abrupt CSA changes. P7A has huge and abrupt CSA change bump, and then the outlet again is small but close to same size as passage itself. I think this very poor bend might be one of the main reasons why Y8 pump is inferior to older ones.

This should clarify the main differencies between D-series oilpumps. Here is the measured numeric data. All measures in millimeters.

Rotor tooth count, inner/outer
PM3 9/10
P7A 10/11
PLC 10/11

Rotor outer dia.
PM3 77.9mm
P7A 72.9mm
PLC 76.9mm

Rotor thickness
PM3 6.5mm
P7A 7.9mm
PLC 7.5mm

Inlet port diameter
PM3 oval shape, around 14mm
P7A 14.3mm
PLC 14.3mm

Outler port diameter
PM3 ~12mm
P7A 12.2mm
PLC 12.2mm

Pocket depth, from oil pocket between inner/outer rotors
PM3 12.6mm
P7A 10.8mm
PLC 10.5mm

Pressure relief valve setup was identical in all pumps. Also spring tension feels same. Here is a small summary and notes/comments about those pumps;

PM3: Supposed to be highest flow rate. Abrupt inner shapes, smallest inner volume but smoothest outlet.

P7A: Supposed to be around 25% down in flow rate compared to PM3, no clear reason found for this. Most significant difference is outlet curve shape. Higher tooth count (=higher pumping frequency). Rotors are smaller in dia and pocket depth, but also thicker compared to PM3 so pocket volume should be quite close. Has clearly largest internal volume of all these pumps.

PLC: Very much the same as P7A, but has way smoother internal shapes. I mean here the transitions to pump part where it moves the oil from inlet to outlet side. In/out passage transitions to pump/rotor chamber are equally poor in all pumps. Minor differencies in rotor dimensions, but rotor ID and oil seal are a lot bigger because of 4mm bigger crank snout in '01-> engines.

I don't know almost anything about different pumps, so I can't tell what makes the supposedly big flow difference between these pumps. Like I've said one possible culprit is the poor outlet design and implementation in newer pumps, but there might also be difference in rotor pocket volume too.

So, I chose the Y8 P7A oilpump for my D15 build. I'll continue soon with the information about what I actually did for the pump to perform strong in performance application.


I checked some Service Manuals too,

D16Y8 pump displacements is 33.4liters/min @ 6800rpm
PM3(D15) 45liters/min @ 6300rpm
D16A8/9 DOHC oilpump is 63liters/min, something over 6000rpm too.
HondaNickx
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